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    1. #1
      [Rogue] Ambush, Backstab and Hemorrhage
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      Thumbs up [Rogue] Ambush, Backstab and Hemorrhage

      I made this video to show to everyone that these spells are doing the appropriate damage numbers. So for those who yell "buff/nerf rogue" or "rogue is op/underpowered", please send them to review this thread.
      The addon I used is Dr.Damage, an addon that is world wide used to calculate spell numbers.
      This should serve as base, when other admins want to buff/nerf these spells without a solid reason.
      I'm open to discussion, if you want to contradict me, please do so with retail proof, where you can see the items used and stats, 4.3.4 patch.
      Videos where some rogue is hitting a target, where we don't know the items both have, the rogue and the target, neither their stats, are not a valid resource.



    2. #2
      [Rogue] Ambush, Backstab and Hemorrhage
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      i assure you drdamage is not properly working (At least in this case) because backstab is way overscaled and hemorrhage underscaled. i played retail all of 4.3.4 as rogue and this patch backstab barely did more damage than hemorrhage, and hemorrhage was very good. here's a video for reference that i've used in the past here to help balance rogues if u wanna check it out since you don't trust me with elite daggers or something

      in this video, Original is full pvp gear (except legs i believe) + elite daggers
      Khuna is full pvp gear + elite daggers
      as u can see, backstab on wowmortal does way too much damage and hemorrhage needs a slight buff

      EDIT: in regards to both players' items: it's well known that Original used full pvp + 2 badges, and as a rogue who was a major khuna fanboy in s11 i often checked his armory and while playing in NAO tournament he used full pvp gear and (i believe) heroic legs as only non pvp
      Last edited by SOONGJANEUK; 07-19-2017 at 05:02 AM.

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    4. #3
      [Rogue] Ambush, Backstab and Hemorrhage
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      Linking a video from outside of wm, where you cant really see player stats and items, does not prove that my drdamage is not properly working or backstab is way overscaled and hemorrhage underscaled. You have to perform same actions under same conditions as in the video to prove that. And since you dont even see the items players use, both the rogues and their targets...
      I linked you a video where you can see everything from the date , spec, glyphs, items used, gems, enchants, reforge, using an addon used world wide.
      You linked me a video where you can't anything except some numbers poping out on the screen. I would say to you: recreate the same conditions on wowmortal - to compare the damage - but you can't since they don't show their char tab.

    5. #4
      [Rogue] Ambush, Backstab and Hemorrhage
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      did you read my EDIT? you can ask anybody who played arena on retail in s11 and they will tell you the same as what i did in regards to the players' gear

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    7. #5
      [Rogue] Ambush, Backstab and Hemorrhage
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      I agree with the fact that drdamage is not a trustful source when it comes to hemorrhage damage.
      In the retail video the rogue is doing alot more damge with hemo regardless what gear he would be using anyway. On wowmortal you crit up to ~18k on dummy (which was an 8k CRIT ) on a MAGE with MAGE ARMOR and 3.5k resil. I do not have any pictures of combat log at this moment but I do believe that the retail video is more than enough to scale a simple ability. Not to mention that the difference between having 8k agility with ~ full cata gear and ~8.7k agility using a more of a disc pri / rog type of gear is not THAT big, 700 agility wouldn't buff the 4k noncrits on mage into 8k noncrits.
      I personally have tested this some time ago on another server and got many requests (from people who have played retail 4.3 and know how the game works) that hemo is GARBAGE after i scaled it with drdamage.
      At this point I don't think u would need anything more than a random retail video to see that hemo on wowmortal is currently doing low damage, even if there was a somewhat gear difference

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    9. #6
      [Rogue] Ambush, Backstab and Hemorrhage
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      I also think that the whole scaling of hemo, backstab and ambush could use some work. I personally tested it out myself today on a 3500 resi mage (with frost armor), and I was hitting 35k backstabs (without find weakness), ~32k ambushes and 14k hemorrhages. The fact there's that big of a difference in damage between hemorrhage and backstab, and backstab doing more damage than ambush, blows my mind to be honest.

      In regards to the retail video that was linked before, it was as said before, known that Original and other top rogues, ran a full pvp gear setup with elite daggers and 2 badges. I don't see why you don't trust us on this one and use that video as an example on how to properly scale these 3 spells.

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    11. #7
      [Rogue] Ambush, Backstab and Hemorrhage
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      and there you have it. nerv, wkmz, and i are three accomplished and skilled rogues (the first of the list even having a rank 1 title here, if you don't think wkmz and myself are good enough/knowledgeable enough to know that the class we've played for years on this patch is imbalanced) who have played this patch for years and all agree on the same issues in regards to the imbalance of rogues on this server:

      - hemorrhage is too weak (wkmz even said drdamage isn't correct for it)
      Quote Originally Posted by wkmz View Post
      At this point I don't think u would need anything more than a random retail video to see that hemo on wowmortal is currently doing low damage, even if there was a somewhat gear difference
      - backstab is too strong (Nerv said it does more damage than ambush typically - test it yourself).

      On 4.3.4 patch backstab was not too good. the extra damage on backstab in comparison to hemo was too minimal when held against the increased energy cost that many rogues used hemorrhage even when behind an enemy (except certain burst-oriented comps in arena). You can see MANY videos on retail (Tosan, Iblazen, Original...) in which backstab deals CONSIDERABLY less than here and hemorrhage hits quite a bit higher
      Last edited by SOONGJANEUK; 07-19-2017 at 07:39 AM.

    12. #8
      [Rogue] Ambush, Backstab and Hemorrhage
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      Lol if u buff hemo with this bug haste rogues can be triple more op than now,not a big deal to stay like that rogue is just fine and pretty op if u know how to build with the facts we got now.

    13. #9
      [Rogue] Ambush, Backstab and Hemorrhage
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      Quote Originally Posted by Juice View Post
      Lol if u buff hemo with this bug haste rogues can be triple more op than now,not a big deal to stay like that rogue is just fine and pretty op if u know how to build with the facts we got now.
      We fixed the haste bug regarding energy regeneration.

      I still did not see anything concrete that would help me mod these spells. What do you want me to do, mod them by simple approximation from what i see in that video? Test again, normal cata items. No buffs, no potions. You will see that you do the same damage as in the video. It's not how you remember, i reverted jasons's mods.

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    15. #10
      [Rogue] Ambush, Backstab and Hemorrhage
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      Quote Originally Posted by *** View Post
      We fixed the haste bug regarding energy regeneration.

      I still did not see anything concrete that would help me mod these spells. What do you want me to do, mod them by simple approximation from what i see in that video?
      Ah didnt know im not that active good that u fixed it.
      Indeed this video wont help uto get the right numbers u need ress of enemies and one hundred more reasons and not forget thats khuna he can kill u with sinister strike only if he want to these are rgoues no one ever could be close to them from here khuna is like x3 nerv or was i meam.nerv could be best now.
      Last edited by Juice; 07-19-2017 at 09:59 AM.

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